Epiphany: The 'real thing' ?

[Donner]

It really hit me this week that often the 'real thing' is not what we think it is.....

What Im talking about is getting recorded/ vintage tones ...

Specifically the difference between say Jimmy Pages' recorded tone on an early LZ album and playing an actual Tele into a Supro live ...

And why a dirt pedal thru an amp sounds more 'real' than the actual rig itself....

We are so used to hearing recorded music and especially the music we grew up with and the tones in our head/memory.....

ok Im rambling ~~~

It hit me how a Honey Bee into a clean amp sounds and feels more 'correct' than actually playing thru a small combo thats distorting itself...

What we hear on record is the sound of that small combo MIC'd and then replayed thru clean fullrange speakers which is much closer to running a pedal into a clean amp.

The pedal is more like a mic'd amp than an amp ....

And I would say this about most of BJs drive/distortion designs that what they nail is adding the recordable and reproducable sound of an amp as opposed to the amp in the room sound.

does that make any sense

[musicsoma]

I definitely agree. This is why I love my BJFE pedals so much! So true about our ears wanting that recorded sound. You can definitely get there, but I haven't been able to do it without a little help from the BJFE friends on my board. They really thicken, enhance, shape, and highlight everything lacking in a straight raw sound. We also need to remember that even "live" albums we love get retracked for nearly every instrument on almost every part. The finished product doesn't really contain many live aspects at all.

For those of you in the church scene, there is a very famous worship leader here where I live. My buddy played with him for years and was so excited to be on his last live album only to find every one of his parts was redone and rerecorded after the event. In fact, the only thing original to the live show by the end of the recording process was some crowd ambiance.

On a different note, there is also a huge difference depending on the room and amount of people. The way sounds gets dispersed and absorbed can drastically change the overall tone shape. How many times have you really dialed in the "perfect tone" at home only to find out it is terrible in a different venue? With the BJFE, BearfootFX, and Mad Professor, I am completely confident I can get that sound in almost any circumstance because of the amazing tone shaping characteristics. Ironically, this can also work on the flipside. I am on the fence about parting with another very pricey boutique overdrive because while it doesn't blow me away at home, every time I play it on Sunday at church with the right guitar/amp combo, it is EXACTLY what I am looking for in that live setting.

[melodichaotic]

It really hit me this week that often the 'real thing' is not what we think it is.....

What Im talking about is getting recorded/ vintage tones ...

Specifically the difference between say Jimmy Pages' recorded tone on an early LZ album and playing an actual Tele into a Supro live ...

And why a dirt pedal thru an amp sounds more 'real' than the actual rig itself....

We are so used to hearing recorded music and especially the music we grew up with and the tones in our head/memory.....

ok Im rambling ~~~

It hit me how a Honey Bee into a clean amp sounds and feels more 'correct' than actually playing thru a small combo thats distorting itself...

What we hear on record is the sound of that small combo MIC'd and then replayed thru clean fullrange speakers which is much closer to running a pedal into a clean amp.

The pedal is more like a mic'd amp than an amp ....

And I would say this about most of BJs drive/distortion designs that what they nail is adding the recordable and reproducable sound of an amp as opposed to the amp in the room sound.

does that make any sense

On the recorded tones live, you'd have to bring those tube mic's and tube outboard gear, compression, reverb, the mixing desk itself to complete what otherwise would be a very raw Tele into a Supro tone.

I think/know that of all the many BJF drives I have and have tried, they impart a balance of raw and refined tone that into a good platform amp, give you enough tube and compression processing from the whole signal chain to give you those tones live, but with so much more control and variety.

On the Model G for example, of which I've had from the beginning of the run, and have had 5 Gibson Ga 40's over the past 10 years, of which I kept the best sounding one, I can easily say he totally nailed that amp vibe and more(more easily lower gain tones),and a voicing on the nature knob that swings from channel one(which is darker) on the CCW side, to channel two which has all the presence and bite(N at more CW settings), and the feel is completely there.
Of course I take into consideration that I'm running it into my amp, which acts(like all the other drives)more like a power amp to the pedal(pre AND power amp qualities), and that is specifically why BJ's designs are superior to my ears.

I mean, my GA 40 still sounds amazing and it has a bit more gain and compression, but then we're talking about the original cone of the original Jensen P-12R Alnico, the original output tranny, and those wonderful 5789 pentode pre amp tubes that Gibson used in a few of there other amps, and where Vox(like Marshall from Fender), borrowed heavily from their application, but the Model G is awesome delivering it's balanced, open grind at all levels.

What I hear in the HB and the SYOD's, the BBOD, the DRD, is that yes, you can make a global statement that everything sounds better turned up, but with the this stuff, it's like at higher levels(gigging and up, but not stupid loud), the pedal circuit seems to fuse with the the amp better than I've heard before, like it's been hard-wired in, and easily as good as drive channels in many popular amp designs.

[jjguitarranch]

People rarely account for the affect the mastering process has on recorded guitar tone... It's remarkable and often not talked about.

LZ I - I think the Supro was highly modified. The accounts I read reported that the amp was built with two 2x10's, but a custom baffle was created and installed to fit a 25W green back...

[hawaii121]

Very interesting thoughts and something that would probably start a war over at TGP .

[Donner]

Yeah I know BJ spends alot of time listening to the pedals at different distances from the speaker when tuning them and 'removing impurities' ....
an amp can sound very different in a room as opposed to being close mic'd and recorded as we all know ..... I think the DRD is a good posterboy for this as it sounds good both in a band or close mic'd and thats the EQ tailoring that BJ did to it....

[Hulakatt]

I think there really is something to this as well. Cranking my champ sounds good but it is so much closer to the tones in my head (from the recordings) with the hbod. It's nowhere near as simple as just "more compression" or "more grit". It's just a different feel.

[hawaii121]

Besides my one line response, I actually wrote a post here and then walked away from the computer before posting and I'm sure you all have been there...

Anyhow, I like the reference to "fusing" with the amp, I see this as one of the great strengths of BJFE pedals. I also love Cornish stuff, but feel that I am playing the pedal more than the amp when using them. This is NOT a bad thing, just different.

With regards to Justin's original post, I think this thread poses thought for a good debate about what you actually hear when listening to classic recordings. I don't know near as much as some of you regarding recording, but I do think it's safe to assume that Les Paul into Marshall is not the only thing going on when things are done in a studio. Like a lot of you here, I have played some classic guitars into classic amps at loud volumes and I, too, find that BJFE and Cornish stuff really help me get closer to the sound that I want to hear than just a guitar into an amp, This is especially true when we talk about not using face melting volume.

[rockeroo]

I think it may be easy to get side tracked when discussing this thread. When you couple layered guitar tracks, combined rigs, studio EQ/Compression, mods and other trickery, those tones we have internalized in our minds are probably not achievable live without an uber complex rig. The tones we go for live are often different (out of necessity) than those we nail in the studio,...

...but we can replicate the feel of those tones live through high quality pedals and a decent amp. The thing that continues to impress me about Bjorn's pedals is how you can take an old fender amp and throw it into a Vox, Hiwatt, Supro or Marshall land -- feel and tone considered -- by simply putting one of his stompboxes (and perhaps a bit of compression) in front of the amplifier. This becomes all the more apparent when you enter into the studio with an amp, guitar and BJFE device. Even at relatively low volumes, the BJFE can provide the tone, feel and character of an amp.

I have to say that I VERY MUCH agree with 'Burgs' in his demo of the HBOD. In short, he explained that he was not awe-struck by the HBOD when playing through it live. He felt that similar tones could be achieved with other stompboxes. What separated the HBOD from other 'similar' pedals was the mic'd playback. When he reviewed the tape, he alluded to the fact that the HBOD's tone was, in fact, amp-like in feel and character. I think the same can be said of all of Bjorn's dirt boxes. I think that is why I am so drawn to my Model H. When I play through my H, I feel like I have a cranked Hiwatt next to me.

I have yet to find disappointment when playing through a BJFE and my old deluxe in live situations. Despite my somewhat superfluous signal chain, when I strip my rig down to its nuts and bolts, I find great satisfaction. The BJFE pedals give me exactly what I want. I can achieve a variety of desirable tones through my Swedish delights.

Cheers.

[MBT74]

I've had similar experiences lately. I started out just using a Line 6 PodXT and 12 - 18 months ago decided to buy a small amp and get some pedals. I don't gig at the moment but I record songs for a friend in a different country (got to love the internet. You can form virtual bands ). A lot of amp in a can pedals have passed through my house in that time and my conclusion now is that I can get close enough to most of them for what I want by using a good parametric EQ and compression. I will never be able to get my 1w Red Iron Lil Mo amp to genuinely sound like an AC-30TB or a cranked Tweed. But for recording, I can definitely get it to have that "character". I can dial in the right EQ to give me a pretty good Day Tripper tone. I can dial in a pretty convincing Stones or Black Crowes tone. Once they're mixed in with other instruments and vocals, it would get even tougher to pick them out as fakes. Maybe not for the amp purists though .

The lesson I've learned is to understand EQ more and what role it plays in getting a great sound with the guitars and pedals I have. I probably could have saved a lot of money if I'd understood this a more when I started. I could have spent a lot less time chasing the perfect pickups, perfect amps or perfect pedals and more time playing by simply EQ'ing what I have until it is perfect instead. More time should have been spent learning how to create perfect tone instead of trying to buy it.

For me, the greatest things about the BJFE / Bearfoot pedals I've played is their clarity. I said this to Donner about the H. Even with the gain dialled to full you can still hear the chord ringing out underneath the distortion. Same for the HB. The effect never overrides the chord. It's always still more about the chord than the effect. Perhaps this is why I think they excel as amp like pedals because that's what I like in an amp. And they stack better than any pedals I've played.