Maxon ad900

[hawaii121]

Hello All,

I've got two analog delays that I wanted to compare to the Echoczar, play around with, and consider as possible alternative to taking the Echoczar out of my house. Very likely I will be selling one or both. The Ad900 is 4 chip and in really good shape and the Strymon is brand new. If someone has interest, I'll contact you in 3 or 4 weeks when I'm done with the comparison.

AD900 - make me an offer
Strymon - Bill's fast - I'm going to play with it for a week or two and then send it to Bill.

[strings2wood]

I'd be curious with the comparison of the AD-900 and the Strymon Donnel.
I LOVE my AD-900 and this thread proposes it as the KLON of analog delay pedals:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... LON+delays

There's interesting reading here from guys who tried the Strymon Brigadier and kept the AD-900/ 999:
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... ight=delay

"If ever there was a pedal that did analog & digital well, with modulation, and tap tempo, and is super-easy to tweak, the Brigadier is IT. Even tho I didn't keep it (only because I have my analog needs covered with the AD999, so I wanted TAPE & digital, not analog & digital), it's the closest I've ever seen to the perfect delay."

"I have settled on the Maxon AD900 with 3005 chips and a Red Echodrive. I think I tend to like the Echodrive a tad better in terms of where it sits in the mix but the AD900 has a special warmth that makes it a great addition."

No doubt Strymon is flavour of the month.
I have GAS big time for an El Capistan,
but I also did for the Damage Control Timeline, VMSD, and the Skreddy Echo-
The recent fall on re-sale prices on the Skreddy Echo probably reflect the Strymon excitement.

Tweaking delay is fine when you want to noodle- but
for me the acid test is live.
Time. Repeats. Level. simple and quick.
There isn't the luxury of time to tweak and listen in between songs in a loud crowded bar.

I can't imagine anyone in the band or bar thinking it's worth the wait,
or saying:

"I prefer the bucket knob below noon,
he needs to roll that back a little for my liking."

At home or as a studio tool, different story.
I'll be curious to hear how they compare for you.

Cheers Donnel and Bill.

[hawaii121]

Thanks for the input Simon. I picked up the maxon on a trade and the strymon popped up on tgp "new in box" at retail. Knowing I could (and would) turn the strymon for what I paid for it, I thought it could be fun to compare them with the echoczar. I also figured someone on this site would probably be into getting a strymon and Bill jumped right on it. I'll play around with them and post some unmarked audio samples for anyone who would like to hear them next to eachother. If there is interest, I can post the identities after a week or so. Blind taste test, if you will.

[strings2wood]

So I'm guessing it was an El Capistan rather than a Brigadier being so quick on the turn around?

[bsic]

Tweaking delay is fine when you want to noodle- but
for me the acid test is live.
Time. Repeats. Level. simple and quick.
There isn't the luxury of time to tweak and listen in between songs in a loud crowded bar.

Exactly what sound check and rehearsal are for If a player bends down to make large adjustments during a gig and take time, he probably dont know the pedal well and he's look like a buffoon for making people wait during a gig.

I can't imagine anyone in the band or bar thinking it's worth the wait,
or saying:

"I prefer the bucket knob below noon,
he needs to roll that back a little for my liking."

Honestly, almost EVERYONE in the crowd is NOT a guitar nut like us. They wouldnt know the difference between and Klon and a Bad Monkey, an ElCap or a CC.. My wife cant tell the difference between a strat and a les paul when listening to a tune.

The audience just knows two things- a) it sounds good, b) it sounds bad. They count on the musician to get it there.

So IMO they may not notice degradation in the repeats, etc... but that is not really what matters. How does the dialed in sound affect the player? There are nights where I am so pissed at my tone and spend half the gig distracted with small adjustments etc... That same night I walk off stage and half a dozen people catch me on the way out saying how GREAT it sounded. Thats cool and all, but if Im not satisfied with it myself then its not as meaningful.

Now the nights where its all dialed in, and *I* feel all sounds great and the sum of parts add up to a very pleasing sound- then you hit that chord and feel like a king, and the hair on your neck stands up... when it sounds and feels KILLER to you. Times like this you are inspired and those are the nights the guitar feels like it plays itself... Those are the nights we all aim for, and that is why we hunt for the perfect tools to get it there. Its more about the pedal affecting us, not the effect affecting the audience.

Some get there with guitar-> amp. Some have a giant pedal board with tons of pedals. Very successful guitarists are seen using both approaches. Everyone needs/wants different things to get to that sweet spot where licks roll out effortlessly. Some look at large pedalboards and say its hiding behind pedals-you mentioned that phrase the other day- In the end its a chef getting inspired by spices added to the overall recipe.

So, I guess Im saying that subtle effects can be important overall, even if they are complicated and not immediately noticed by the audience. Plus, noodling with gear is fun I think we all agree on that! Sorry for the discussion!!

[Donner]

good stuff guys --- Im copying this to the community forum so feel free to continue the thoughts ....

[melodichaotic]

Honestly, almost EVERYONE in the crowd is NOT a guitar nut like us. They wouldnt know the difference between and Klon and a Bad Monkey, an ElCap or a CC.. My wife cant tell the difference between a strat and a les paul when listening to a tune.

The audience just knows two things- a) it sounds good, b) it sounds bad. They count on the musician to get it there.

So IMO they may not notice degradation in the repeats, etc... but that is not really what matters. How does the dialed in sound affect the player? There are nights where I am so pissed at my tone and spend half the gig distracted with small adjustments etc... That same night I walk off stage and half a dozen people catch me on the way out saying how GREAT it sounded. Thats cool and all, but if Im not satisfied with it myself then its not as meaningful.

Now the nights where its all dialed in, and *I* feel all sounds great and the sum of parts add up to a very pleasing sound- then you hit that chord and feel like a king, and the hair on your neck stands up... when it sounds and feels KILLER to you. Times like this you are inspired and those are the nights the guitar feels like it plays itself... Those are the nights we all aim for, and that is why we hunt for the perfect tools to get it there. Its more about the pedal affecting us, not the effect affecting the audience.

Have to completely agree with Bill on this...the two things that matter most to most, is, yes whether it sounds good or bad, but most importantly--how good are the vocals, and how consistent is the rhythm(how good is the drummer), the two fundamentals of music..either you're in tune or you aint...either your in time or you aint, and you don't need to be a musician to know that.

Also, I would be happy(though not satisfied) with the mix in the room being more favorable than my own sound, because it doesn't matter HOW good you have it dialed in, a bad mix will deem it irrelevant right quick.

Also to add to what Bill stated--yeah, sometimes it's YOU that is the variable that is temporarily "out of spec"...you think it sounds like crap and your playing like crap, and sometimes that is the night you get the most comments, vs. when everything seems to be aligned with the stars, but to everyone else it may just be an average night with some highlights.

The point is, when it comes to sound, of course we all want to be discerning, AND there is that direct affect between how good you play relative to how good of a sound you're getting for that particular gig no question--additionally, when it comes to delay details, or rate settings on phaser, flangers, etc...that's all good, but in the end it's just fluff for our heads as the degree that it has a substantial impact on the audience takes a nose dive, compared to whether or not your core clean and dirty tones are happening.

Conversely, I don't think we should be any other way...it's sort of like GAS but more of of a "healthy" addiction to REALLY dial in specifics and always learn more about what translates and what doesn't--of course, there's the bigger issue of the acoustics of the venue you're playing in.

I mean, there's something to be said for Santana STILL getting to sound check early to make sure everything is spot on...it's another if you're of the Eric Johnson/Tom Scholz camp and take 8 years to make a follow up record

At the end of the day, speaking specifically on electric guitar, no matter how it sounds, you have to feel it in your fingers and stay connected to the wood and metal and have that ALWAYS be square one, because that's what will get you through a crappy sounding gig, and that's what really tests your instincts and you as a player...there's been a fair amount of times where I have PURPOSELY played through someone elses rig(having not played through it before), and had only a minute to dial in some tone before playing--that's waht helps you stay connected...ask Bobby of the countless times he done gigs with a crappy backline, though not by choice...

...you certainly learn a lot as far as how YOU, hear and EQ things, in addition to our dynamics as players, which is why we would EACH sound a bit different playing through the same rig.

[hawaii121]

From a performance psychology point, all the things you guys are touching on make total sense. The player is going to be closer to his max performance when a certain set of variables are in place. Each thing that detracts from that, raises negative stress and takes away from a player's concentration on his playing. Good tone perceived by player = more confidence and, likely, a better performance.

Because of all this, I think it really does matter to seek out gear that fits your level of taste. I recently played with a low end squire through a dark crappy sounding amp while at a friends house. It made me feel like something was wrong with me. Of course, the best out there "Can make anything sound good" but I'll also put out that Jeff Beck is going to sound better on his gear set up than what I described above.

I recently had a conversation with my younger sister who is an artist in NYC about getting the right color for a board I'm working on. The depth she was able to go with her explanation demonstrated an understanding of subtlety that only comes from years of painting. While the person who sees her work may not be able to explain why it appeals to them or brings up certain emotion, her ability to understand these fine points separates her work from other who do not.

I mention this because I really do believe that there is a "sonic" artist role that can surface for musicians of any playing level. I think that most of us on this site have a tendency towards this calling by evidence of what we seek out and admire about Bjorn's work. To be a "sonic artist" I think means to become fascinated by the subtleties of sound. I think of Pink Floyd, Radiohead, and even some music from later "Tool" as examples of this. There is more exploration on the fringe of sound and song structure that can be hard to put your finger on, but it works.

When we see posts where one of us has found a new way to mix the BJFE 'paints' (ie: SYOD into LGW = amazing!), I think we are sharing our discovery of sonic art. For us to continue to seek more, is about building a broader pallet for exploration.

[strings2wood]

Alot of well made points in this discussion by Bill, Marty and Donnel and I agree with each from each individual perspective.

So, I guess Im saying that subtle effects can be important overall, even if they are complicated and not immediately noticed by the audience. Plus, noodling with gear is fun I think we all agree on that!

Exactly Bill and probably the reason I'll end up with a Strymon.

the two things that matter most to most, is, yes whether it sounds good or bad, but most importantly--how good are the vocals, and how consistent is the rhythm(how good is the drummer), the two fundamentals of music

Absolutely Marty. Most people on the floor are listening to/ watching the vocalist- and it's great when they acknowledge what people are playing/ solos etc.
Drummer can make or break everything-and you do have to lock in- no argument. It's easier when they are rock solid as we all know.

Also, I would be happy(though not satisfied) with the mix in the room being more favorable than my own sound, because it doesn't matter HOW good you have it dialed in, a bad mix will deem it irrelevant right quick.

Totally correct Marty. What we hear isn't the final mix which is in someone else's hands/ ears. So even when we think we sound good it can end up a truth or a relative truth.

when it comes to delay details, or rate settings on phaser, flangers, etc...that's all good, but in the end it's just fluff for our heads as the degree that it has a substantial impact on the audience takes a nose dive, compared to whether or not your core clean and dirty tones are happening.

I think this gets to the heart of what I was saying Marty. Sum of the parts etc.
I'll want it as perfect as human error will allow for. I even have outlets for expression pedals on the AD-900 to control time and repeats which can be nuanced when playing. But the clean and overdrive sounds centrality stands well.

I mean, there's something to be said for Santana STILL getting to sound check early to make sure everything is spot on...it's another if you're of the Eric Johnson/Tom Scholz camp and take 8 years to make a follow up record

Yep and rehearsal is where most of it happens. Over the summer we'll be playing festivals where you won't even get a soundcheck and you're plugging in while the last mob is walking off while the MC is announcing you let alone 8 years to tweak a delay( I've got it down to 5 ).

From a performance psychology point, all the things you guys are touching on make total sense. The player is going to be closer to his max performance when a certain set of variables are in place.

Absolutely Donnel.
That's where the right delay can be the right tool and all I was saying was for me the AD-900 will be that more often than most.
I'll tweak till the cows come home when time allows and will probably buy an El Capistan I was just saying it's a solid workhorse under pressure that will allow you to play wthout sweating the minutiae which the OCD in me will always strive for.

I mention this because I really do believe that there is a "sonic" artist role that can surface for musicians of any playing level.

There is more exploration on the fringe of sound and song structure that can be hard to put your finger on, but it works.

Yep...it's why some guys will use a chorus for The Police as well as the Pretenders- and some will HAVE to have the Electric Mistress in preference to the Hartman on the board........
Thanks for all viewpoints and for Donner moving it into this forum.

[melodichaotic]

Umm Simon...you were quoting and responding to me on the above, not Donner. No worries, just a friendly FYI