Clones and Vegetarians

[cajone5]

Hey - I've been "defending" Dan Zink on that thread and want to apologize if I offended any of the posters over there (Bobby D and Bsic) and wanted to make my point a bit clearer. I just don't like this one guy taking the flak for a flawed industry. Yea it sucks. Yea it's ethically questionable at best. But it's the system that's flawed, so let the blame lie where it should. This one guy should probably not be doing what he does but at the same time, he doesn't advertise or push his work. He is a small hobby builder and has just gotten a lot of great recommendations on TGP. In addition, I think the market he is reaching is completely separate from the BJFe market. So if anything he will drum up more business for Bjorn in that he will inspire people to pay the extra money for the real thing who would have otherwise written the pedal off as overpriced hyped up boutique cork sniffer stuff.

So again, I just wanted to clarify to those here that I understand and agree with your arguments in general. I just don't like when they're solely directed at one person when there are many other offenders and in the end it's the fault of the system. Save the comments for a thread on the ethics of the pedal industry and cloning, or post in all the offenders threads rather than targetting one single offender of many. Hopefully I've been able to make my stance a bit clearer here and again, I apologize if anyone was offended by anything I said - I support BJ and dont' think people should be making money off of his work, but I think that many others shouldn't be making money off of the work of numerous other builders. That is why I don't flame the individual, because at the end of the day, if Dan Zink doesn't do it, someone else will. The only way it will get fixed is if builders can patent their circuits. Until then, the system will always allow for these things to happen.

And one more time, sorry everyone for coming off as a (butthead)

[Bobby D]

it's not the CIRCUIT.....it's the NAME........when someone says "Bit O HONEY", and states on his webpage it is a "BF eff E", he is OBVIOUSLY trying to CASH IN on Bjorn's name, as well as his clones of Hermida's Zendrive and Mosferatu.

if Dan made that pedal and called it "the sugar drive" or something, and did not reference Bjorn or BJFE in his sales pitch, i would have no problem with it.

Bjorn and Alf have spent MANY YEARS building their reputation and NAME, and it is all they have.

sure, everyone builds tube screamer and fuzz face clones.

but only ONE person builds honeybees.

and because of the success of that pedal, others want to CASH IN on that pedal.

[cajone5]

Okay I'm sorry if I'm misreading something but are you okay with copying the circuit as long as a unique name is used? Because I think the circuit copying is the bigger issue. But maybe I'm in the minority.

[SteveA]

I agree that the circuit is the bigger issue. The name is a trademark as well but bit o honey could never sound good if the circuit could not be copied. Besides the circuit is the genius at work. Regardless, its an issue we won't solve here in any way. I keep loving the real thing.

[Bobby D]

Okay I'm sorry if I'm misreading something but are you okay with copying the circuit as long as a unique name is used? Because I think the circuit copying is the bigger issue. But maybe I'm in the minority.

the circuit CANNOT be copywritten or trademarked.

what is happening in THIS PARTICULAR CASE is that Dan Zink is using both Bjorn's name and reputation as a builder, as well as the name of his best selling product, to sell his own pedals.

check out Nick Greer Pedals.....he makes a very similar sounding pedal to the HOneybee for $129 new.

it's called the GHETTO STOMP -- no honey, or bee, or gold color, or other references to the HBOD

AND.....Nick does not even mention BJFe or Bjorn at ALL in his product advertising. and he seems to be doing pretty well using HIS OWN NAME and his own pedal names.

what is at stake here is a man's lifes work -- Bjorn has been doing this sine the early 80s, and has worked hard, eaten ramen noodles, and made many sacrifices to build the BRAND NAME and REPUTATION of BJFEe.

those Honeybees he builds put FOOD ON THE TABLE for his wife and kids.

and when people clone his stuff, and then also unethically use his company name AND product name to sell their pedals, it tends to piss me off.

Bjorn is well aware of hat is going on, and I am sure he will make his own statement regarding this in the near future

[bsic]

Okay I'm sorry if I'm misreading something but are you okay with copying the circuit as long as a unique name is used? Because I think the circuit copying is the bigger issue. But maybe I'm in the minority.

the circuit CANNOT be copywritten or trademarked.

what is happening in THIS PARTICULAR CASE is that Dan Zink is using both Bjorn's name and reputation as a builder, as well as the name of his best selling product, to sell his own pedals.

check out Nick Greer Pedals.....he makes a very similar sounding pedal to the HOneybee for $129 new.

it's called the GHETTO STOMP -- no honey, or bee, or gold color, or other references to the HBOD

AND.....Nick does not even mention BJFe or Bjorn at ALL in his product advertising. and he seems to be doing pretty well using HIS OWN NAME and his own pedal names.

what is at stake here is a man's lifes work -- Bjorn has been doing this sine the early 80s, and has worked hard, eaten ramen noodles, and made many sacrifices to build the BRAND NAME and REPUTATION of BJFEe.

those Honeybees he builds put FOOD ON THE TABLE for his wife and kids.

and when people clone his stuff, and then also unethically use his company name AND product name to sell their pedals, it tends to piss me off.

Bjorn is well aware of hat is going on, and I am sure he will make his own statement regarding this in the near future

Yep well put Bobby. I saw this zink dude on the FSB thread a while back, and saw this TGP post not too long ago but stayed out-- didnt want to give this guy an ounce of publicity or bumps for that thread. Yesterday I had to say something... but pulled back as I was getting a little angry and the thread was getting a little silly.

Some folks will support cloning under all circumstances, and there is nothing you or I can say to sway them. Others agree with you and I. It just starts a bitter battle where neither side "wins" the argument, its just a rant war. So for that reason I will stay clear of that thread going forward- it would just be pointless. Sort of like arguing about politics or religion- you believe what you believe, and debate does nothing to sway someones POV. All you do in the end is give this guys thread bumps and increase visibility-- promoting his "cause" by accident.

My two cents ....

[cajone5]

That makes much more sense. So basically, it's the system's fault that anyone can copy a circuit. However, it's the builders fault by taking it one step further and openly drawings reference to the popularity of the cloned circuit rather than letting the sound speak for itself (like the ghetto stomp). So at the end of the day both action's are wrong, it's just that one (circuit cloning) is done by many and is a shitty after effect of a flawed system and too little creativity, the other (enclosure/name reference) is the bigger infraction because it plays off of a builder's visual/commercial recognizibility whether the circuit is a clone or not.

That's an interesting way to look at it - I guess I didn't really think of it in that light since the real work behind the pedal is in the circuit. However, consumers shop more with their eyes and based on a recognizable name / brand / look. Well put Bobby D and Bsic. I still says the problem lies far deeper than a single builder, however, I think you make a really good point here.

[SteveA]

That's pretty surprising that circuits can't be patented after all they are the intellectual property of the creator! So yeah, I do get the point. The Honey Bee trademark is being used shamelessly. To be honest, those builders never amount to much more that a temporary thing. I just don't like that people out there will try a copy and make references that this is how the real thing sounds. You can't judge one man's work by that of another less skilled one.

[Bobby D]

yes....i will not post again in that thread, i tried to say what needed to be said as diplomatically as possible. Bjorn DOES NOT want negative posting about BJFe on any forum.

i mean, it's like learning guitar......at first , you wanna sound JUST LIKE HENDRIX or something. you want to COPY what is successful. but then, you either develop your own style, or you just become a copycat with nothing original to say.

my friend Mike has started his own pedal business, and for his first commercial pedal, he LICENSED the circuit from another builder, then added another section to the pedal to make it kinda unique.

Bill Finnegan probably has it the worst -- people all over want to cash in on the KLON. The Honeybee is legendary, and people WANT IT, just because of the reputation. and when they get an inferior clone, and don't like it, it reflects poorly upon BJFe. i have read that many people had a hard time making the "nature" knob work right -- this does NOT surprise me

hell, i don't build them, don't really know what's inside most BJFe, i just PLAY them

[mcass63]

I play them and I cherish them